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Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : sam. 06 oct. 2012, 20:59
par françois67
Bonjour,
à gerardh et fredo,
en y réfléchissant, toutes ces interprétations hyper-spirituelles, bannissant le matériel, cela peut devenir dangereux: à force de faire tout raisonner au 2nd degré, on peut perdre même le plus essentiel: par exemple, dans des cas extrèmes, pourquoi ne pas dire que la Résurréction est une métaphore spirituelle...
Bien à vous.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 3:34
par françois67
Bonjour,
à propos du baptême, voici un texte en anglais que j'ai trouvé sur le sujet:
[+] Texte masqué
Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.



The Names of the New Birth


Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).



Regeneration in John 3


These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).



Regeneration in the New Testament


The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV).



The Effects of Baptism


Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.



Protestants on Regeneration


Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism "works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe." His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody.

Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the "Evangelical" view, common among Baptists, and the "Calvinist" view, common among Presbyterians.

Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God "secretly" regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and thiscauses them to place their faith in Christ.

To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The absurd
implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, "You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit." A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where "water" (Greek: hudor) referred to "amniotic fluid" (VIII:314–333).

Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses.

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.

We are told that at Paul’s conversion, "he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus" (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism."

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body."

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, "Are Catholics born again?" is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?" If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he may think.


http://www.catholic.com/tracts/are-cath ... orn-again#

Code : Tout sélectionner

Ac 2/38  et 41  Après la Pentecôte : baptiser au nom de Jésus Christ2	38	Pierre leur répondit: "Repentez-vous, et que chacun de vous se fasse baptiser au nom de Jésus Christ pour la rémission de ses péchés, et vous recevrez alors le don du Saint Esprit.
Selon vous, la repentence et le baptême sont la même chose; répéter les deux est superflux. En se repentant, on devrait être immédiatement pardonné selon vous, non? Pourquoi faut-il passer par le baptême matériel?

Bien à vous.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 9:02
par Frédo MB38
françois67 a écrit :

Code : Tout sélectionner

Ac 2/38  et 41  Après la Pentecôte : baptiser au nom de Jésus Christ2	38	Pierre leur répondit: "Repentez-vous, et que chacun de vous se fasse baptiser au nom de Jésus Christ pour la rémission de ses péchés, et vous recevrez alors le don du Saint Esprit.
Selon vous, la repentance et le baptême sont la même chose; répéter les deux est superflu. En se repentant, on devrait être immédiatement pardonné selon vous, non? Pourquoi faut-il passer par le baptême matériel?
Qui ça, "vous"? A qui prêtez-vous cette position doctrinale ?

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 9:09
par Frédo MB38
Cinci a écrit :... Un pain véritable est impliqué là-dedans pour commencer. C'est comme l'eau du Jourdain. Il y a bien un pain véritable en 3-D qui doit être mangé. Paul aura été baptisé dans de l'eau véritable et non pas dans une parabole ou une métaphore.
Certes. C'est bien pourquoi tous les Chrétiens (à deux ou trois groupes près), célèbrent la cène avec du vrai pain et du vrai jus de raisin (vinifié ou non) et le baptême avec de la vrai eau. Chez nous autres baptistes on immerge, même... C'est dire si nous sommes attachés à la matérialité du signe de la grâce.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 15:19
par Cinci
LXVI Nous appelons cet aliment Eucharistie, et personne ne peut y prendre part, s'il ne croit à la vérité de notre doctrine, s'il n'a reçu le bain pour la rémission des péchés et la regénération, et s'il ne vit selon les préceptes du Christ. Car nous ne prenons pas cet aliment comme un pain commun ou une boisson commune. De même que par la vertu du Verbe de Dieu, Jésus Christ notre sauveur a pris chair et sang pour notre salut, ainsi l'aliment consacré par la prière formée des paroles du Christ, cet aliment qui doit nourrir par assimilation notre sang et nos chairs, est la chair et le sang de Jésus incarné : telle est notre doctrine.

- Saint Justin martyr (circa 150 ap. J.C.)

Puis le chapitre LXVII qui suit illustre tout ce qu'est le déroulement normal de la réunion du dimanche pour les chrétiens.

http://www.patristique.org/sites/patris ... ologie.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 15:27
par françois67
Merci de citer l'un des plus anciens écrits chrétiens. Cela montre que très tôt, les chrétiens croyaient en la présence réelle.
Bien à vous.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 15:39
par Cinci
Bonjour,

Fredo,

C'est bien vrai que les chrétiens vont généralement se servir de pain authentique pour la Cène, si vous voulez. C'est comme vous l'écrivez ici. Sauf, ce ne sont pas tous les chrétiens qui vont pouvoir dire comme Justin le signalait : «... ainsi l'aliment consacré par la prière formée des paroles du Christ [...] est la chair et le sang de Jésus incarné : telle est notre doctrine.»

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 16:33
par Frédo MB38
Cinci a écrit : ... ce ne sont pas tous les chrétiens qui vont pouvoir dire comme Justin le signalait : «... ainsi l'aliment consacré par la prière formée des paroles du Christ [...] est la chair et le sang de Jésus incarné : telle est notre doctrine.»
Certes, la transsubstantiation n'est pas la doctrine de tous les Chrétiens. L'ancienneté d'une doctrine n'est pas un critère infaillible de vérité.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 19:04
par Mac
Bonjour frédo frère, :)
Frédo MB38 a écrit :
Cinci a écrit : ... ce ne sont pas tous les chrétiens qui vont pouvoir dire comme Justin le signalait : «... ainsi l'aliment consacré par la prière formée des paroles du Christ [...] est la chair et le sang de Jésus incarné : telle est notre doctrine.»
Certes, la transsubstantiation n'est pas la doctrine de tous les Chrétiens. L'ancienneté d'une doctrine n'est pas un critère infaillible de vérité.
Oui, mais je ne crois pas que cela soit applicable à Saint Justin car il y a la substance de départ qui est le pain et la substance final qui est le corps du Christ. La substance de départ et la substance finale ne peuvent pas être la même, c'est logique et cela vaut mieux pour avoir la vie éternelle en soi comme dit en Jean 6. Ainsi lorsque Jésus prend du pain, la substance de départ c'est le pain, mais après avoir dit : "ceci est mon corps", un incroyant peut encore dire que cela est resté du pain car il voit du pain ne concevant pas ce qui se passe sur le plan spirituel, mais le croyant sait que ce n'est plus du pain mais bien la chair du Seigneur, ou alors il ne mangerait que du pain mais le pain du boulanger ne donne pas la vie éternelle contrairement au fait de manger la chair du divin rédempteur selon Jean 6. C'est une question de cohérence, cela ne peut pas être la moitié d'un pain et la moitié du corps de Jésus, cela ne peut pas être une représentation, un simple symbole car ce qui donne la vie éternelle c'est de manger la chair du Christ selon Jean 6 et Il est donc logique que Jésus dise Lui-même "ceci est mon corps" et non la moitié ou un représentation. Je crois que c'est ce qui vous fait dire dans un de vos messages que c'est plus qu'un symbole. Si on réfléchit c'est soit c'est le corps du Seigneur soit cela ne l'est pas. Si cela ne l'est pas il y a un gros problème.

Fraternellement en Notre Seigneur Jésus Christ. :ciao:

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 20:37
par Cinci
Aux intéressés,

... en-dehors de cette affaire d'eucharistie, il reste que ce chapitre 6 de Jean est plutôt dense, très riche. Il y a une foule de correspondance là-dedans.

Pensez-vous que le chapitre pourrait avoir des liens avec le récit de la tentation ? comme dans Luc 4 ? C'est comme une impression que j'ai. Sauf, des fois... les intuitions ne seront pas toujours fondées. Et, moi-même, je peux me tromper bien sûr. Vous verriez peut-être autre chose ?

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : dim. 07 oct. 2012, 20:41
par Teano
l'Incarnation.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : lun. 08 oct. 2012, 11:27
par gerardh
______

Bonjour,

Ce n'est pas le baptême en soi qui sauve, mais la conversion. L'eau, dans le passage de Jean 3, ne se réfère pas au baptême, mais à l'action de la parole de Dieu ("le lavage d'eau par la parole" est-il écrit dans une épître).

La conversion, laquelle fait naître de nouveau d'une vie éternelle, ce n'est pas seulement la connaissance de la vérité, ni même son adhésion de manière intellectuelle, mais un mouvement fondamental du coeur et de la conscience du nouveau chrétien.


__________

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : lun. 08 oct. 2012, 13:48
par Mac
Bonjour gerardh frère, :)

Jésus Christ Lui ne dit pas que la conversion toute seule sauve mais plutôt : "Celui qui croira et qui sera baptisé sera sauvé." Pas celui qui se converti mais "celui qui croira et qui sera baptisé".

Fraternellement en Notre Seigneur Christ. :ciao:

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : lun. 08 oct. 2012, 14:48
par felixcvh
Mac a écrit : ... Jésus Christ Lui ne dit pas que la conversion tout seule sauve mais plutôt : "Celui qui croira et qui sera baptisé sera sauvé." Pas celui qui se converti mais "celui qui croira et qui sera baptisé".

Fraternellement en Notre Seigneur Christ. :ciao:
Dans ce contexte là le salut est conditionnel.

Re: Question sur les évangéliques

Publié : lun. 08 oct. 2012, 15:05
par Cinci
La conversion aussi est une condition.